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 finance. We were in the Depression then, and the state was not paying the
 money to fund the budget. The president of Auburn asked the dean to loan me
 to him as an assistant to go down and lobby the legislature for the money for the
 schools, and I worked down there lobbying. That is where I had my first
 experience in lobbying.

C: In the Alabama legislature?

J: The Alabama legislature. The president of Auburn was L. M. Duncan, who was
 quite a politician himself, and he coached me on how to lobby. He told me,
 "Now, Dr. Johns, you are brilliant, and you are smart, but do not let a legislator
 think that you think that you are smarter than he is. Do not ever do that. You
 must treat them very respectfully. Any question he asks you--it does not make a
 difference how stupid--or any comments, take them very thoughtfully and so on.
 You will find some times when a legislator will oppose you, and he will fight you
 and you will have to fight him. But fight with one hand open always. When you
 sign a lease, chances are you will be the first one to reach over and shake his
 hand." I found that to be true working the legislature.

 Later, when that was done and we had some success there, the [Alabama] state
 superintendent of education wanted me as assistant state superintendent in
 charge of administration in Montgomery. I went on a year's leave of absence
 from Auburn. I wanted to quit, but they would not let me quit at Auburn. They
 gave me a leave of absence, but I told them that I was taking the job.

 So I worked with the state superintendent getting all the legislation through
 Alabama legislature and developing their foundations program and equalization
 program there.

 Then I encountered an avid legislator who would oppose bills I would bring up.
 He would say, "Dr. Johns, I am going to oppose you on this particular bill. I
 promised my constituents back home that I was going to vote this way on the
 thing, and I cannot go along with you on this." I said, "Well, I could not ask you
 to. You have to keep your word with them. I would not ask you to go back on
 your promises at all." Then he said, "I will tell you what I will do, Dr. Johns. The
 next time you have a bill that you want to pass through the legislature, just bring
 it to me, and I will introduce it and push it through."

 Well, that is the sort of thing that you got to know working with legislators. You
 cannot go up there and browbeat them. You have to work very carefully with
 them. Frequently, the legislators are tied up with commitments they have made
 locally, with various things against taxes or against this or against that, and you
 have to respect that. You cannot label them as "enemies of education." You
 want to assume that everybody is a friend of education. If there is anybody who