P: At lots of places, it is almost all adjuncts, I think.

R: Oh, yes. See, this was an interesting debate which went on. It gives you some idea
 of the nature of Santa Fe and some of its people. Every once in a while our faculty
 would look at these reports that came out and say, "Well, you know, our salaries are
 a little bit lower." I guess one thing I would say is that we never hid anything.

 I went to every faculty senate meeting. Whenever our faculty senate met, there was
 on the agenda, every time they met, "President's comments." I would go to the
 meeting and say, "Well, today I want to tell you about this," or I would say, "I have
 nothing to say today. Do you have any questions?" So someone would pull out this
 sheet and say, "Well, Mr. President, look here." I would say, "Yes, that is a fact."
 But, also, every year at budget time I would walk in, lay out the budget, say here is
 what we have got, here is what we want to do, and here is what I think we ought to
 do.

P: You tried to come clean with them.

R: Yes. I really did. You know, we beat a union four times. They tried to organize
 us four times.

P: I was going to ask you about the union. I will get to that in just a minute. I have
 that as a question here.

R: But I would point out to them, "Look, I can show you the relationship between salary
 and percentage of full-time faculty." So I would go get those figures, and we would
 look and see. I remember Daytona Beach paid great salaries, but they had about
 25 percent full-time faculty. I said, "Now, you all keep telling me that you think that
 you do a better job, that we ought to hire more full-time and less part-time, and I
 keep telling you that we do not get funded enough to do that, but we are going to
 do the best we can." Generally speaking, we ran between 20 and 25 percent
 adjuncts, whereas, around the state, I would guess it would be closer to 50 percent.

P: Now, you took adjuncts because of the budget situation. If you could have afforded
 it, you would have had full-time faculty people?

R: I think, Sam, we always would have kept some adjuncts to give you just a little bit
 of movement when the budget falls. When enrollment, the budget falls, things
 happen.

P: Also, you might have picked up a talented person or something, a retired general or
 something like that.

R: Yes, that is true. We would have always kept some. Our faculty, to their credit,
 always said, "Well, we understand that." I always said, "Look, if you tell me that you
 do not care if I never hire another full-time faculty member so we can get the

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