P: Did they try to talk you out of it? Stephen O'Connell now is in charge.

R: No. I went and talked to Steve and told him I thought this was what I wanted to do
 and he said, "Well, if that is what you want to do, you ought to do it." There was
 no "You cannot leave. We cannot do without you."

P: But, they were already in the campaign to raise the funds for the museum.

R: That was over. This was after that.

P: So you left no unfinished business.

R: No. That was done. Joe [Fordyce] took these two appointments to the board, then
 they went over to Tiny and the school board. Well, my God, these salaries were
 pretty high by school board standards, and they raised a big fuss. But, in the end,
 they were not going to go so far as to say, "You cannot hire them." There were a
 couple of stories in the newspaper about all of this.

P: How much was the salary?

R: $17,400 for the two appointments.

P: Each.

R: Yes, for each. So I was breathing a little uneasily.

P: How much was [Joe] Fordyce getting as president?

R: I am guessing maybe $24,000. Anyway, it happened and I made the move. Then,
 Joe did his thing and became president of AACJC the second year. That lead to his
 being invited to the community college in St. Louis [Missouri].

P: The community college is in where?

R: St. Louis. He had met several of their board members at all these national meetings,
 and Joe was marvelously charming and well spoken, and here he was in this top
 office in the country. When Joe Cosand, who was one of the famous names in the
 community college movement in America, left St. Louis to go be a professor at
 Michigan, they had this opening.

 They interviewed a number of people, including Joe, and Joe turned them down and
 talked with me about it. Joe and I were friends. Well, he thought it was over with.
 Then he got a call in his office on a rainy, Friday afternoon. He came out and said,
 "Alan, they have just called me from St. Louis. They want Grace and I to come up
 and talk one more time, but they are wasting their time. You know I am not going


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