MCBC 8 page 17

B: Elaborating on the interaction with the legislature, my understanding is that
 Manatee County school board attorney Kenneth Cleary tried to marshal his
 forces in Tallahassee to try and stir up opposition to that. Do you have...?

H: I am sure he did, and, of course, I have heard that. But like I said, I did not follow
 those day-to-day legislative type things as the governor's chief of staff. We had,
 like, Wade Hopping and others who followed the legislative action. Warner.
 followed some of it. Maloy would be naturally following all the educational issues
 and briefing the governor and what have you. I would get bits and pieces of it as
 the chief of staff. Only when the issue really got to the point like it did was I given
 direction to take over the school system and stop the forced bussing.

B: Were you aware of any attempts of Congressman William Cramer [Republican
 Senator from Orlando] to counteract the bussing situation? I know there was no
 love lost between him and Kirk.

H: Yes, I was just starting to say there was not a whole lot of comraderie between
 the two. In fact, one time on an airplane, why, the ICY machine-they called it the
 Inscoe Cramer & Young-they had a lot of their forces on this plane. They were
 jabbing the governor back and forth, and I got up on the speaker system and I
 said I wanted everybody to understand that the governor understands what ICY
 means is I Control Young. That broke up the ice, but it was getting kind of
 sarcastic there for a while. I am not really familiar with what all Cramer tried to
 do. But you are correct, there was no real love lost between them.

B: Returning to the Friday, I know that you were in Tampa in the hearing with Mr.
 Hoffman, but you talked earlier that there was some sort of confrontation at that
 point in Manatee between Governor Kirk and the marshals.

H: Right.

B: They were attempting to serve you?

H: Yes, and according to the United States attorney, Briggs, he felt he had an
 agreement with Gerry Mager and the governor and the court that Hoffman and I
 would be there at a given time for them to serve the paper. We were not there
 because we had not necessarily been informed to be there at that particular
 moment. The governor felt like he could accept service for us. He was there, and
 he wanted to take and accept the service for us, but they did not want to do that.
 They wanted directly Hoffman and I. They were arguing back and forth, the way I
 understand it, and the governor called Gerry Mager and said, was this the way it
 was? And Gerry said no, that was not what we agreed to, as such. But then they
 got a hold of us and told us that we needed to be there at 2:00, and we
 highballed it up there.
B: Gerry Mager was Governor Kirk's legal counsel?