D--Was there one particular thing or one aspect that you really could tell why the company was so successful? S--Jack said to be successful in business you need two things. Desire, direction. They had the desire to be successful and they took a direction. But they had a desire to be successful. Both of these people were selfeducated. They, whatever, they learned, they learned not in schools. Jack, I think, eventually took a part-time course in college. I know Leonard didn't finish high school. Jack may have. I don't know. They were self-made people. They started at the bottom. When I met Jack he had his won truck delivering furniture. I had just started college myself. And Leonard was on the road. Look at the way they started out in life. Their father died. Their mother was penniless. She had a grocery store and was raising a family. My father worked in a grocery store. This is the American story. This is true. To me, they knew nothing to the rest of the world. Write a book on these guys. What you can do in this country. I'm not getting carried away with this stuff. Not that they did every- thing perfectly. They had their shortcomings just like everybody else. This is what could happen to somebody in this country. D--Bernice Freiberg. Was she back in that time period? S--Bernice Freiberg's mother and Fannie Rosen were girlfriends. And Bernice Freiberg's mother played some part in the raising of them during the period of time that the mother was in Philadelphia or Chicago with the husband. They were the best of friends. D--What was Leonard's and Jack's father's name? S--Abraham. The families were close. And Bernice came to work for Leonard as his secretary. She was a very bright woman. D--It was very enjoyable talking to her. S--She worked with Leonard. She worked with him at Antel and also she worked with him here.